Book Clubs are such interesting places to study people and actually get a glimpse inside their heads. Especially if you’re in a club that doesn’t just blow off the discussion while asking if there’s more Pinot Noir and mini quiches. Although there is something to be said for drunk-fun discussions but usually they quickly leave the realm of reading and enter a zone where few people remember what was said the next day. I’ve never been in a book club that paired our discussions with wine or food so I may have been too heavily influenced in my perception by movies like The Book Club staring Diane Keaton, Jane Fonda and Candice Bergen whose characters decide to read Fifty Shades of Grey series. Oh my god, if I see another ‘Old Lady’ movie here I’m going to throw up. Can we all spell “Stereotype?” The role models for building those stereotyped movie characters seems to be The Golden Girls TV show. But wrapping up the point of this paragraph: if you google “wines to serve at book clubs” you’ll get the impression they all do it.
And back to the topic of stereotyping senior women in movies. Stereotyping people often works in comedies because there must be enough truth in the stereotype to ring bells in our brains. Many of us can say, for example, that we’ve known someone like Blanche in the Golden Girls who is ‘adventurous’ if not down right promiscuous and perpetually horny. Most of us probably know more Dorothy types---blunt, strong-willed and grounded in reality, or genuine and naive people like Rose, or like Sophia who mostly lives in the past. My problem with the Old Lady movies is that’s ALL they show. My peer group of older women is broader than just four personality types. We do have our Sophias, Dorothys and Roses but I’d be hard pressed to find a Blanche among us. In fact if the word ‘sex’ has even been muttered in our hallowed halls I haven’t heard it. Except for that time when animals were humping in a documentary and one of the guys was being a guy about it. We have a least five additional types of older women living here that can’t be stereotyped the way Hollywood likes to portray us.
There used to be a game going around where you had to figure out which character we thought we and the others playing the game were most like in the TV series Friends. I’d get Monica (because I’ve always been detail picky) or Phoebe because I could also be an airhead living in my fantasy world. Don would get Chandler most often. If we played it today using Golden Girls I’d say I was most like Blanche because I’m strong-willed, but at different periods in my life I’ve been all those characters. I was as naive as Rose in my 20s for example. And this and the paragraph above it have absolutely nothing to do with book clubs so it’s time to wrap it up.
The book we discussed in club this month was Anxious People by Fredrik Backman. He also wrote the first book our club discussed back in November, A Man Called Ove. I thought that one was the most boring book on the face of the earth until the midway point when it started getting mildly interesting. Had I not pushed through it because it was a book club choice I would have stopped reading after the first 100 pages. That’s what book clubs are good for---pushing you out of your comfort zone. And my comfort zone was saying I’d never read another Backman book, but there I was last month doing just that. Or rather there I was listening to it on Amazon’s audible. Most in the club loved Backman’s first book and didn’t warm up to this second book. I was just the opposite.
Book club was kind of ruined this month by a woman who decided she wanted to see what we were doing. She sat next to me and I’ve had encounters with her before so I’d love to be able to show compassion to her, but she drives me and others crazy. At best I manage a cool tolerance of her. She’s had a couple of strokes and she never stops talking. She talks fast and always about herself and she had a lot of opinions about the book she hadn’t read.
Later that night half of our book club sat around our dinner table and had a great book discussion. We all was of the same opinion about Chatty Cathy. It’s hard to say without knowing her before her strokes but having been around a lot of stroke survivors I’m guessing she has impulse control issues which is why she can’t quit talking at inappropriate times. Our book club has two retired college professors and four retired grade school teachers so they have major league skills in dealing with people who want to dominate the center of attention but even so we’re all worried about the future of our group if she continues coming. In the past we’ve had wonderful, insightful and deep discussions that I’ve looked forward to. Stay tuned next month to see if that holds true. We’ll be discussing Detroit: An American Autopsy. ©
If Chatty Cathy doesn't even read the Books, why is she there? Is she incapable after her Stroke of reading, perhaps she should then listen to the Audio version and at least then know why she's there? I probably wouldn't enjoy a Book Club since I'm not a serious Reader, except Blogs... *winks* Also, if a Book were boring, I know I couldn't get thru it, I'm still struggling with my Steven Tyler Auto-Biography and I'm starting not to like him anymore after how he's portraying himself, which is probably a very truthful portrayal at least, he's not sugar coating how he is. I still like his Music and sense of Style, but I doubt I'd like someone whose like him... but, you just never know. Some people nobody likes I've gotten along with and some popular people everyone loves have irritated me to where I don't see the attraction/draw they seem to have on their Fans.
ReplyDeleteThere is always one or two people who didn't read or finish the book for one reason or another but they usually just listen or explain why the book didn't grab them. And that is acceptable in our group. CC just came for the first time and wouldn't have access to the book we discussed. She says she reads all the time. CC moved here from another Continuum Care Campus because "she didn't like the people there." Her kids were furious about her move because you have to buy into places like this and you don't get your money back if you move out after the first year. It was like throwing a couple of grand away.
DeleteSeems CC may have trouble finding a Tribe she can gel with and it would drive her Adult Children nuts if she can't get along and play well with others and feels "the people" are the problem, if she's incapable of being introspective enough to own her part in why it's difficult for her to form the connections? I can see where those who couldn't finish the Book would still be Welcome to give input as to why it didn't appeal to them. I usually look at Reviews of Restaurants, Movies, Books and such to get a feel for how other people rated any of it, but always lean on my own preferences and likes or dislikes most.
DeleteI love my BC and we also have many different types of people although we were all teachers together for most of our careers. We don't serve alcohol but do have a dessert that we take turns bringing. As you said, it's great to push ourselves out of our reading comfort zones. I love discussing books! We also add anecdotes from our own lives and learn about each other at the same time. CC sounds like she could put a damper on the get togethers though. Is there a plan?
ReplyDeleteI've loved our book discussions both here and when i was in another group. Book club just happened so I don't think anyone is thinking in terms of a plan for CC yet. Since our campus app puts out a call for anyone who wants to joint to do so, I don't really see a solution other than one of the people with stronger personality limiting her off topic monologues by talking over her about the book. Or using one of those talking sticks that you pass around.
DeleteWould you believe I never watched Friends? Watched only one episode of Seinfeld too, but I do like Golden Girls.
ReplyDeleteWe owned the entire set of 7 (?) seasons of Friends. That and MASH were my husband's favorite so I've seen them enough times for you and for me. I still like them and Seinfeld better than the Golden Girls. Always have right from the get-go when they first came out.
DeleteI can relate. We have one of those in our group. She's usually interesting (and often on point with the book) but sometimes it's hard to get in a word. Our group is the Savory Sisters and you can guess from that how much food plays into our meetings (and wine, too!). I went for the first time in two years last week because my friend Sharon was coming to talk about her book and we actually talked about it non-stop. I've never seen so much book discussion in our group but it's so powerful, it touched a chord. I'm at the point in life where I want to read what I want to read (and work through the 82 books staring me in the face and the ones I get when I trade with Joan!). Is the Detroit book the one by David Maraniss? I've heard that is excellent. We might have read the one above (we did one about Detroit but not the Maraniss but it was during my hiatus.)
ReplyDeleteNo, the book is by Charlie Leduff who was a reporter for the Times. the book by David is "Once a Great City." We're already taking about finding a book about the renaissance of Detroit. The book we're reading was written 10 years ago and is gets into the politics and crime of why Detroit failed so badly.
DeleteReading for pleasure really is different than reading for a book club. I like the challenge of digging into a book and answering the list of questions, preparing for the discussions. Mostly I don't love the books but they are a learning experience and that's good for me.
Stereotyping is so prevalent and subtle, that we often don't realize how often it is used. It's everywhere. I guess humans are more comfortable when we think we have things figured out. It really is a disservice to people, though. I saw a lot of stereotyping in education when I taught school. It didn't matter whether it was parochial or public school. Many teachers (not all) had preconceived ideas about their students based on parents' status, appearance, ability, etc. I'm sure I was guilty of wrong thinking, too. But when you think about it, how horrible for adults to "pigeon hole" young students. Shame on us! I really have to fight those tendencies toward stereotyping.
ReplyDeleteI'm glad you have some book club members who are willing to help moderate discussions. It sure helps with moving things along. I feel sorry for Chatty Cathy, esp if she is struggling with a medical/physical issue--but it must make your book club meetings a bit stressful. Hopefully, things will get better.
This is the first time she's come to book club so I'm hoping she won't come back, but if she does, like I said, there are enough retired teachers in the group who know how to deal with situations like that, figures crossed it works out.
DeleteA teacher I know really well once told me that teachers can be the biggest bullies of all when they don't like the parents of a child.
Stereotyping others causes a lot of societal problems but when it's used as a excuse not to give others a chance to break free of them or to ignore it when someone doesn't fit it.
I'm finally coming to terms with one of my quirks; I've never seen Friends, or Monty Python films, or even The Godfather, for heaven's sake. The last time I was in a theater was to see "The King's Speech," which I enjoyed, but I just get twitchy when I think about sitting down to watch anything. Maybe it's not a quirk, but a character flaw. In any event, I've always preferred books, which I can take at my own pace: putting down, re-reading, or pondering as I choose.
ReplyDeleteThe one I did watch, regularly, was The Golden Girls. It was my mother's favorite, so I watched it with her, but I've never gone back to watch reruns.
'Quirks' is a far better word than 'flaws.' Quirks just implies you don't fit the norm while flaws imply there is something wrong with not fitting the norm. The norm is just a statistic probability of having certain likes and dislikes or whatever it is we're measuring. We all learn and assimilate information differently.
DeleteI'm kind of the opposite of you in that I'm always curious about whatever it is that is popular in the media and I try to understand why others like what they like in books, movies and the media. Monty Python is a good example of something I have yet to figure out the appeal and why anyone would dump money into making something so stupid. I'm not like a lot of the people in my peer age group in that I don't like old movies. Been there done those. Give me the latest releases.
There are some classics I'll watch again and again, like "Casablanca" and "The African Queen." In fact, I actually traveled to the Houston Boat Show some years ago to see the very boat that was used in the filming of "The African Queen." My favorite cinematographer was David Lean. I was mightily impressed by "Bridge on the River Kwai," "Dr. Zhivago," and "Lawrence of Arabia." I was still young and midwestern then, so it may have been those exotic, broad landscapes that got to me.
DeleteI loved those last three movies you mentioned back when they were first made but in recent years I tried to watch them again and wasn't nearly in love with them. I totally agree it was the exotic locations shots that made those movies what they were.
DeleteWas glad to hear your impression of A Man Called Ove. Me too. I don't think I made 10 % before hitting delete. I am too old to waste my time being bored. Like you I am a mix of all the Golden Girls.
ReplyDeleteOh my, I love the idea of a talking stick. I may try that the next time my two sisters-in-law come to visit.
ReplyDeleteWould be worth a try. LOL
DeleteCharlie LeDuff's Detroit and give it high points. He combines journalism with good story-telling. Apparently, the Golden Girls has had a comeback in the past few years. There's truth in the stereotyping when you think of all the personalities in congregate living whether a private home or a CCC like yours. And females outlive men as a rule so a story about 4 women of that age living together isn't that farfetched.
ReplyDeleteI'm really liking his writing style so far. He's gritty and makes his words count.
DeleteYou're right, The Golden Girls scenario isn't far-fetched and I do understand when someone is writing a script they showcase certain characters and can't represent the whole eco-system of a place like where I'm living. It just gets old after seeing 3-4 movies with that same four old women theme.
"Except for that time when animals were humping in a documentary and one of the guys was being a guy about it."--Careful there, Jean. Your own stereotyping is showing. ;-)
ReplyDeleteI ended up liking the book Anxious People more than I thought I would. The dry humour in it saved it for me.
Oh, yes, I'm as good at stereotyping people as the next person. LOL
DeleteI loved Anxious People too but some didn't see the humor in it that you and I did. I thought it was also a simple introduction of how the Stockholm Syndrome works when people are held hostage. Lots to unpack in that book when you pick the characters apart.
Our building runs a movie evening once a month. I could never be bothered because they always run "old" movies that my 81 yo friend really enjoys. Although I am older I am only interested in seeing the latest movies.
ReplyDeleteI am a huge reader, but have never bothered with a book club because I don't think I can get that invested in talking about a book in great detail.
I'm the same way about seeing old versus new movies. I go to some of the Friday night movies here but only because I want to be part of the discussion that happens at lunch or dinner the next day. I skip all the musicals which are extremely popular here.
DeleteI used to belong to a movie and lunch club and we always saw first run moves the first week they were released. Loved it.
I'm a huge Golden Girls fan. I fill many nights with their commentary in the background of whatever I'm doing. Oddly when they came out, they broke through the stereotypes of older women. Ladies in their late 50s (and older as the series went on) were finally seen as still being active, desirable and interesting beings. Funny that it's now used to categorize older women.
ReplyDeleteWhen I was in the 10th grade, I finished all of the mandatory classics on the reading list. The ones where we read the book, do a report then take a little quiz. My teacher asked if I'd be willing to try something a little harder and I said, sure.
She brought me her copy of 'The Gods Themselves' by Isaac Asimov. I read this book over the course of a couple of weeks. I had a hard time getting into it because I've never been a huge sci-fi fan. It was difficult for me to write the report because I was uncomfortable with what I'd picked up from the book. I was raised in a very strict, conservative household and you just didn't think these things...
In the report I said that I felt the writer was bringing up the idea of having more than two genders. I said that the merging of species sounded very sexual to me, not to mention the merging of three. She told me that I had read too much into it, that it wasn't about gender or anything sexual.
Since that time, I grew into an adult and eventually the internet was born. I've looked into this book and guess what.. I'm not the only one who felt this way about what he was saying. Not everyone did, of course, we interpret things as we do. But it made me feel a little better to know that at 16 I wasn't some kind of freak for interpreting the book the way that I had.
I can see how book clubs can validate what you get from a book, or give you an entirely new perspective.
Fans of Golden Girls come in all age brackets...you're proof of that. I can identify with having it run in the background while doing something else. I used to do that with Friends, Seinfeld and Frazier all the time and still do with The Big Bang Theory. It's like when a part you really likes comes up something kicks in and you tune in to what's going on in the program but otherwise its just predictable background noise.
DeleteI'll have to look into 'The Gods Themselves' by Isaac Asimov. We're going to read a sc-fi book down the road.
I've never joined a book club, but you've piqued my interest!
ReplyDeleteI'll be curious to see how this woman is handled. People who talk incessantly, over other people, etc., are surely not aware of how obnoxious that can be. It's right there at the top of intolerable behaviors, just below lying, back-stabbing and the like. One wants to feel compassion, but it's not always possible. Either this is a growing problem or I'm becoming more intolerant.
Culture is more tolerant as a whole. For example, people with mental and physical disabilities no long have to be hidden in the closets, out of sight, out of mind. If it seems like we are more intolerant towards this sector of society maybe it just seems that way because were exposed more to say a Downs Syndrome child or an adult with physical disabilities?
DeleteI will be interested in how CC gets handled next time, too. In past situations I've learned wait until she sits down before picking my seat. But I have faith in the teachers in our club to handle the situation with both a firm hand and compassion.
I've written about my book club. Jean I hated book club! Most of the women were older than me and oh so pretentious in their choices of books. At first I thought it was this way because they were a bit older. But no, they were just this way. I recall asking if we could read The Woman on The Train. They rolled their eyes and said, aren't they making that a movie? As if that meant it was beneath them. So I read things as if I were in English Lit class all over again. Yes, each month was at someones home and that hostess served drinks and food. We all discussed the books while drinking wine or whatever but it was always about the books. We didn't veer off the book much at all even though we drank a lot. Heavy forbid the lead Dorothy would have never let us trail off the book! I found that these women were more impressed with the degree they received and had to tell you that with their english degree this or that as if anyone really cared about their college days in 1969. They loved to hear themselves talk and it showed. The books they choose were pretensious and boring. I found it all a big fat snooze fest so I made an excuse to quit. Yes, they talked like the Golden Girls. Another woman and I even named them just as you said. There were two Dorothys and she was my least favorite character and so were these controlling condensending women. You don't appear to be a Dorothy to me Jean!! They would be so judgemental about some of the other nice women and I didn't care for that. They would insult as she did and act like that was okay to do. They were hurtful. There were a couple of Roses for sure and 1 Blanche. She was a funny woman but almost sad in her search for love. I felt badly for her. Some women never stop using their sexuality because that is the only way they ever felt or were given any semblence of love so I understood her but found it sad. Less offensive to me than the Dorothy's. I'd rather they be a Sophia. :-) I will never join another book club again, they ruined it for me. I'll just read my books alone. But as far as Friends, Rick would be mostly Joey with Chandlers quick humor. lol
ReplyDeleteWhat a weird book club experience! I think the way the books are picked out says the most about the book club's structure and compatibility. We all get to pick a book to put on our list and we want to hit all genres. Some clubs only pick books on the NYT best seller's list or all mysteries. 100% of us have degrees but no one is flouting theirs, we are all very compatible except for CC coming in this time.
DeleteI can see Joey and Chandler in Rick! LOL
Oh boy…is this ever timely! I have recently started 2 in-person courses by our local ElderCollege and the same Chatty Cathy is in both of them. I wondered if she has some kind of anxious tic but perhaps it is the outcome of a stroke. Her behaviour is exactly as you described. So far the instructors are not reining her in, and I don’t know how much longer I can keep my mouth shut. Today she interrupted a conversation I was having with the instructor after class and she tried with both hands to pull my book out of my hands so she could look at it. I had to tell her to get her hands off of my book, quietly and firmly. I may qualify for sainthood yet!
ReplyDeleteDeb
Yes, you may qualify for sainthood. We kind of had the same issue after our class was finished and she wanted to take one of the books that we'd just read and we tried to explain to her that they need to go back to the library as a group but she kept trying until someone who had their own personal copy offered it to her to bought. She did a similar thing when we were making hats for charity and she couldn't understand the the looms we were using wasn't hers to keep. She also couldn't understand that the hat she was working on wasn't one she could give to her grandson even though she was told several times. She ended up getting it. If she does have impulse control issues from a stroke giving into her isn't helping. You have to relearn impulse control just like you do when your a kid with someone saying "No" and this is why.
DeleteIt's always fun to read your blogs. I've tried two book clubs but they were not really book clubs. An excuse to drink and eat and no one read the book at all. WLLO Village also has a book club The No Guilt Book Club ...
ReplyDeleteThe NO-GUILT Book Club meets again on the second Tuesday of the month. We are reading the Lake Oswego Reads book, How Much of These Hills is Gold. Here is the link describing the book. There are multiple copies at the library. https://www.ci.oswego.or.us/loreads/2022-lake-oswego-reads-selection
Our Bookclub meets the 2nd Tuesday of each month at 10:00 am. See you on April 12. As usual it is fun to chat with anyone who shows up even if you didn’t read a book on our theme or anything at all. All are welcome!
So I'm just a book club of one! Getting better about reading the "best sellers" from a few years ago.
Not sure why you your group doesn't just have a monthly Meet-Up if no one reads the books, but to each his own. We make it clear that you don't need to opt out from coming if you don't finish the book. The no guilt phrase is great. May have to start borrowing it.
DeleteI thought I was the only person who didn't like A Man Called Ove. I didn't get far into it before I quit. Someone else told me they liked Anxious People better, so I may give that a try.
ReplyDeleteWe had a monthly book club years ago and a few people NEVER read the book (same people every month). The food and wine were fun, but we also had one person who was having personal issues and wanted to talk about them endlessly every month. Another member was a therapist and one night we ended up listening to a de facto therapy session between the two for the entire evening. The next day some of us discussed offline and decided to disband. A year later, we reformulated a group without them. It sounds harsh, but no one wanted to confront them -- just decided to let them take the therapy session elsewhere. LOL.
Sounds like a good solution to disband and start again later. I kind of wonder if book clubs that are attached to places like this and senior halls do a better job of keeping the focus on the books. It's seems like it would be easy to get in a party mode when meeting in someone's home. Some of the books stores, too, that have clubs meet in the stores appealed to me too,
DeleteThe only book club I was a member of was at the local library. The best thing that happened during our meetings is that I met my husband. We were revisiting Catch 22 , and he asked me out after discussion. The book club ended not long after and we've been married 22 years. I guess my one try at it was successful. To your point, people who can't read cues , whether it's a stroke or just being oblivious, can make the discussion miserable. Hopefully those who are experienced at redirecting can move things along. Always enjoy your posts.
ReplyDeleteI used to collect "how we met" stories when I was in the wedding business and I love yours. Thanks for sharing it.
DeleteIt's a special talent to be able to redirect a conversation that's gone off course and bring it back. One of the college professors in our group is very good at doing that, so I have hope that CC won't ruin it for the rest of us.
I was in a neighborhood bookclub at one point [when there was one] and we had a CC in our group. She'd had some sort of brain problem and the result was her talking all the time AND taking handwritten notes of what everyone else said, often asking us to repeat ourselves. There was no amount of wine to neutralize her presence.
ReplyDeleteIt's sad when one person can ruin it for everyone else, especially when that person has a disability and is trying, may not ever be aware of how negatively they change the dynamics of a group. I hope ours doesn't end the same way as yours did.
Delete"That’s what book clubs are good for---pushing you out of your comfort zone." I hadn't thought about it this way before; but as soon as I read this sentence, I knew it was true. Being a lifelong, overachieving, good student, I *always* read the whole book, even when I'm the only one to do so, which does indeed get me to read things that I would otherwise probably have given up on after 50-100 pages. In my group, the person who suggested the book always feels at least a little anxious that the others won't think it's a good choice.
ReplyDeleteYou would love the mix of women in my book club. I can't say I necessarily like the books we read but I LOVE the discussions. Getting to see how people come to their opinions of characters is fascinating.
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